The ethics of food production

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caseydog

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[Mod.Edit: This post and the following few have been moved to form a new topic. Its a huge topic but one worth debating (MG)]

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:
I've actually left one vegan forum after being targeted because I have rescue chickens and occasionally eat their eggs. Most of the eggs from my rescue chickens (and their offspring) are given away to the local food hub to help out those less well off. I never claimed on their forum to be vegan (and every here I've always said vegan plus eggs) but I was accused of supporting the meat, dairy & egg industry by "exploiting" rescue chickens because I didn't smash their eggs and let the chooks eat them. Go figure. These same people didn't see that then rescuing a dog or cat from a shelter also supports the breeders of pet animals...
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Even if I only ate plant-based food, which is only if I had too, I wouldn't tell anyone I'm a vegan. The radical vegans would catch me eating something (like an egg) and call the vegan police on me.

And what about plants? Deforestation to make room for agriculture contributes to global warming. Fertilizers used to grow plant-based food runs off into the oceans and kills fish. It seems like on a regular basis I read about the unintended consequences of the latest trend that's supposed to be better for the world.

It seems as if we could accomplish more if we just adopted reasonable goals like eating less meat, and more plants as a whole than having a small percentage of people not eat any meat at all.

CD
 
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Having been involved in farming and particularly the dairy industry for decades I can tell you first hand and beyond doubt it is cruel.

Left to their own devices most of the modern world would struggle to kill and animal to eat but they’re happy for someone else to do the deed.

I say this as a meat and dairy eater. I don’t kid myself I’m not being cruel and it’s not hypocritical so I make an effort to reduce my meat consumption, I just struggle to imagine giving it up completely.
 
SandwichShortOfAPicnic said:
Having been involved in farming and particularly the dairy industry for decades I can tell you first hand and beyond doubt it is cruel.

Left to their own devices most of the modern world would struggle to kill and animal to eat but they’re happy for someone else to do the deed.

I say this as a meat and dairy eater. I don’t kid myself I’m not being cruel and it’s not hypocritical so I make an effort to reduce my meat consumption, I just struggle to imagine giving it up completely.
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I've hunted plenty, and done some fishing. I'm willing and able to kill my food. For me, and most people, it is the keeping of animals that is the problem. Cities and suburbs in First World countries frown upon keeping of livestock in your yard. In Third World nations where people keep livestock in in yards, streets in the alley between shacks, it could hardly be considered humane, and definitely not sanitary.

There are plenty of farms raising animals for food that do it humanly, but consumers have to seek it out, and be willing to pay extra for it.

CD
 
caseydog said:
I've hunted plenty, and done some fishing. I'm willing and able to kill my food. For me, and most people, it is the keeping of animals that is the problem. Cities and suburbs in First World countries frown upon keeping of livestock in your yard. In Third World nations where people keep livestock in in yards, streets in the alley between shacks, it could hardly be considered humane, and definitely not sanitary.

There are plenty of farms raising animals for food that do it humanly, but consumers have to seek it out, and be willing to pay extra for it.

CD
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True but the dairy industry is always cruel regardless of how it’s presented.

Producing milk means a cow has to have a calf which is promptly taken away so we can then have the milk that’s meant for the calf.

The cow is then milked continually 2-3 times a day to keep production up and will be slaughtered when their milk yield drops.
Most cows can only repeat being in calf and producing milk three maybe four times before they are completely spent and slaughtered aged only fiveish.

All this might ok for some but these animals are seriously distressed at having their calf taken and will often go crazy searching for them. I’ve witnessed a cow with full udders jump a 6 bar gate more than once to try and stop their calf being removed, it’s unpleasant to witness to say the least.

Once slaughtered some are used as meat for human consumption but the truth is most people who buy beef are buying Bull beef as the animal is slaughtered at only 1-2 years old (approximately) for tenderness.
A tough used up dairy cow isn’t a popular choice.

Fortunately sexed semen means ‘on farm kills’ of Bull calf’s in the UK is becoming a thing of the past but having watched a growing pile of baby calfs slaughtered a couple of days after birth because they’re not worth feeding it’s a high price to pay for a pint of milk.

I wish it weren’t true as I love dairy but I very rarely eat it as it’s not a good life for them, more of a protracted distress lasting years 😔
 
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I'm torn to bits over these issues. I was a vegetarian for a long time when I was a kid until my twenties. I also refused to wear leather shoes which was not an easy option in those days. Now, I do eat meat but very little. Its not my favourite food really. Eggs I love though.

One issue (amongst many) I have with chicken and egg production even in free range production is that male chicks (rather like bull calves) are killed shortly after birth. At least, I think this is still the case.

I'm also appalled by how short a life animals have in meat production. Most are still babies or adolescents when slaughtered. Personally I'd rather eat mutton than lamb any day, for taste alone.
 
Unfortunately, the way nature works is that living things consume other living things. It's inevitable, baked in, as it were. So just speaking for myself, I know that the alternative to eating something living is death, but at least I can minimize my infliction of cruelty on sentient beings. This is my personal choice and (with some specific exceptions) I do not tell other people what they ought or ought not to do.

We're faced with no good choices, but some are worse than others.

I'm sure I've posted this before, it's a classic.
View: https://youtu.be/G__PVLB8Nm4
 
The OMWC said:
Unfortunately, the way nature works is that living things consume other living things. It's inevitable, baked in, as it were. So just speaking for myself, I know that the alternative to eating something living is death, but at least I can minimize my infliction of cruelty on sentient beings. This is my personal choice and (with some specific exceptions) I do not tell other people what they ought or ought not to do.

We're faced with no good choices, but some are worse than others.

I'm sure I've posted this before, it's a classic.
View: https://youtu.be/G__PVLB8Nm4
Click to expand...
Darn I can’t view it!
31A95EEF-906B-4CDF-B782-ABCAC6DFEC15.jpeg
 
Morning Glory said:
I'm torn to bits over these issues. I was a vegetarian for a long time when I was a kid until my twenties. I also refused to wear leather shoes which was not an easy option in those days. Now, I do eat meat but very little. Its not my favourite food really. Eggs I love though.

One issue (amongst many) I have with chicken and egg production even in free range production is that male chicks (rather like bull calves) are killed shortly after birth. At least, I think this is still the case.

I'm also appalled by how short a life animals have in meat production. Most are still babies or adolescents when slaughtered. Personally I'd rather eat mutton than lamb any day, for taste alone.
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I was also a vegetarian around that time, until oddly enough until aged 15 I started work on a farm and a year later stopped. I’ve been shooting, slaughtered a lame cow, ‘dispatched‘ a chicken and put a pet ‘to sleep’.

If I’m being completely honest some of it bothered me and some of it didn‘t. Cow’s and pigs yep even aged 16 absolutely felt bad, they are feeling animals in a way any human being understands feeling. A chicken was completely fish eyed though, I’ve watched them tear apart (and eat) the cutest little dormouse that was nesting under the coop and rip a toad apart a leg at a time, ruthless and as red in tooth and claw as they come.

As for eating eggs, they poo them out involuntarily and never eat them so it’s a bit like refusing to eat a chickens turd because it belongs to the chicken, honestly they couldn’t care less. For me it’s just how they’re produced and the life they have that matters and thats the tricky bit.
 
caseydog said:
Fertilizers used to grow plant-based food runs off into the oceans and kills fish. It seems like on a regular basis I read about the unintended consequences of the latest trend that's supposed to be better for the world.
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If I can locate my reference I will add them to this, but over 70% of the top 5 (it could be top 7 by weight) grain crops grown in North America actually go to feed for animals, not humans.

So it strikes me that 70% off that run off is actually going to feed those eating meat, leaving only 30% going to plant based food or general grain/legume crop based foodss (so include bread, and corn/polenta in that. In certain soy was also included in this figure, so it must be top x many crops, not grain crops. I'm clarify when i locate my reference).

Those not eating meat, certainly don't account for all of that 30% which I suspect is why those eating meat are the ones generally being targeted.

I'll try to find my source. It made for an interesting read, but I also need to do my physio and hubby will be home in an hour, so it may be tomorrow before I can locate those figures.
 
The OMWC said:
Unfortunately, the way nature works is that living things consume other living things. It's inevitable, baked in, as it were. So just speaking for myself, I know that the alternative to eating something living is death, but at least I can minimize my infliction of cruelty on sentient beings. This is my personal choice and (with some specific exceptions) I do not tell other people what they ought or ought not to do.

We're faced with no good choices, but some are worse than others.

I'm sure I've posted this before, it's a classic.
View: https://youtu.be/G__PVLB8Nm4
Click to expand...
Can;t see it either......
 
I can't find my original link right now, but these all indicate what I'm saying

The World Is Growing More Crops — but Not for Food

Feeding 9 Billion - National Geographic

How much of the world’s land would we need in order to feed the global population with the average diet of a given country?

U.S. could feed 800 million people with grain that livestock eat, Cornell ecologist advises animal scientists | Cornell Chronicle

Impact of a vegan agricultural system on land use

It's an eye opener. And yes, I hear the argument that cows/pigs/sheep convert stuff we can't digest into something we can consume/digest, but at what expense? If you read those statistics, in there somewhere is the fact that the USA produces enough animal protein to give every person in the USA almost twice the American recommended daily allowance of protein...

Other sources

Soy

What percentage of grain goes to feed livestock and what percentage gets exported? - Good in Every Grain

According to The Animal Nutrition Association of Canada, 80% of Canada’s supply of barley, 60% of Canada’s available corn supply, and 30% of Canada’s wheat supply is used by the livestock feed industry
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Majority of European crops feeding animals and cars, not people - Greenpeace European Unit

The analysis found that in, 2018/2019, 62% of all cereal crops were used to feed animals and 12% used in industry and as biofuel, with only 23% going to feed people. A striking 88% of soy and 53% of protein-rich pulses were also used for animal feed
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There is also the matter that livestock is often fed more grain/legume feed (appartently they taste better or the carcass is a higher quality if they are "finished off" on high corn content, than only grass fed (and even grass fed cows are still finished off on corn to fatten them up sadly)) than they evolved to digest and that the high rates of methane in their flatulence is as a result of them not being able to fully digest ask that they are fed. It goes without saying it's not just cows.

As I think you most are aware I live on a sheep range. The sheep here (merino) are bred for their meat. I've seen the practises that occur to fatten the sheep up. The off the label use of herbicides to kill the weeds in the fields that the sheep won't eat, that cause the weed to break down starch reserves (tuber roots mostly) to produce sugars in an attempt by the plant to produce seed before it dies after the herbicide is applied. 24 hrs later the sheep are let back into the field to eat these poisoned weeds. This is classed as "off label" use of herbicides and is actually illegal. The delay between applying it and allowing livestock back in is meant to be 48 hrs minimum.
 
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