How do we communicate?

MypinchofItaly said:
Nope it is properly related to mistakes and among these there is the fact of non consider the unspoken
Click to expand...

Sorry, my misreading - which is rather ironic given the subject of this thread! It might possibly be more grammatically correct to say: 'Not considering the unspoken' or 'To not consider the unspoken'. 'Don't' is an instruction, hence my misunderstanding.
 
Morning Glory said:
Sorry, my misreading - which is rather ironic given the subject of this thread! It might possibly be more grammatically correct to say: 'Not considering the unspoken' or 'To not consider the unspoken'. 'Don't' is an instruction, hence my misunderstanding.
Click to expand...

No no it’s ok, effectively it could be misread, my bad about the wrong translation.
Yes I definitely agree about “not considering the unspoken” as well as “to not consider the unspoken”.
 
Duck59 said:
Misuse of language, as opposed to evolution of words: an example.

Why do so many people say "should of" instead of "should have"? There is nothing whatsoever that is difficult and how can anyone even begin to imagine that "should of" makes any sense.
Click to expand...
And yet, give it two more years, and it'll be in the dictionary as an alternate usage.
 
Duck59 said:
I can see that, but my bewilderment is how anybody could imagine that "should of" makes any sense at all.
Click to expand...

They don't think of the written word and its meaning, I suppose. Its simply phonetic to them. I can't not think of the written word and its meanings but many people don't think in that way. Maybe phonetics is more powerful than grammatical rules.
 
[Mod.edit: This post and following few moved from another thread (MG)]

MypinchofItaly said:
I have no idea why I needed to know “I got run over” :laugh:
Click to expand...

The most difficult part of learning any language is the language colloquialisms.

"I got run over" might mean that "I was confused considerably by it" or "It was over my head" or "It was difficult to grasp or understand."

In German, one might say "Ich steige auf die Beine" which literally means "I climbed up on my legs", but means, I got up or woke up and got out of bed." "Er hat a sehr lange Leitung" literally means "He has a long wire", but colloquially, means "He's stupid and doesn't ever get the idea." It's about the same as in English, saying "He's off planet, in orbit around Mars or in outer space." Saying in English that somebody is zoned, means that they are stunned, catatonic, lost their mind or drifting.

New colloquialisms arise all the time in all languages and contribute to their continuing evolution. Some of the most interesting colloquialisms involve God, to avoid blasphemy or sex, sexual organs and ludeness to avoid being guilty of foul language.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
flyinglentris said:
The most difficult part of learning any language is the language colloquialisms.

"I got run over" might mean that "I was confused considerably by it" or "It was over my head" or "It was difficult to grasp or understand."

In German, one might say "Ich steige auf die Beine" which literally means "I climbed up on my legs", but means, I got up or woke up and got out of bed." "Er hat a sehr lange Leitung" literally means "He has a long wire", but colloquially, means "He's stupid and doesn't ever get the idea." It's about the same as in English, saying "He's off planet, in orbit around Mars or in outer space." Saying in English that somebody is zoned, means that they are stunned, catatonic, lost their mind or drifting.

New colloquialisms arise all the time in all languages and contribute to their continuing evolution. Some of the most interesting colloquialisms involve God, to avoid blasphemy or sex, sexual organs and ludeness to avoid being guilty of foul language.
Click to expand...

Beyond mere simple English words, what I need like anyone else learning a foreign language, is examples in context, how to use such a word or phrase. What I try to do is to memorise a word or phrase and go and look for the context in which it is used, otherwise it would be an useless exercise in transcription and learning by heart something that you have not fully understood. In short, I need to know what I am learning and why. Having a broad spectrum of the language is something you acquire over time, with study, slowly you shift your focus and widen your view.
I must say, however, that the most difficult part, especially for us Italians with English, is the pronunciation. Our language is pronounced exactly as it is written, with the possible exception of the Latin diphthongs, which are really just a drop in the ocean now.

In any case, dialectal variations abound here as everywhere else in the world, and idioms evolve and do so on a 'traditional' cultural basis. Ours is averagely oriented towards food, misery, war, religion (though I am not particularly attracted to it), love, family.
And no shortage of professional blasphemers in certain regions who have, however, over time, refined their technique with very long turns to say the same thing but without being blasphemous (but not out of respect, just out of fear, haha)
 
Last edited:
MypinchofItaly said:
I must say, however, that the most difficult part, especially for us Italians with English, is the pronunciation. Our language is pronounced exactly as it is written, with the possible exception of the Latin diphthongs, which are really just a drop in the ocean now.
Click to expand...

English has its roots in gothic or Germanic languages, but over time has evolved, incorporating borrowed words and phrases from many other languages. Those borrowed features of the language are sometimes precise incorporation of the the parent languages and are just as often or more frequently modified, especially in pronunciation. English, like many other languages, is phonic with regard to the written language with the words implying pronunciation as well as meaning, but never precisely. The phonic characteristics of the English language leads often to the bastardized pronunciation of incorporated foreign words and phrases. English grammar is very malleable with regard to word order and sentence structure as well. And Colloquialisms abound in English. Finally, English has a variety of regional dialects.
 
flyinglentris said:
English has its roots in gothic or Germanic languages, but over time has evolved, incorporating borrowed words and phrases from many other languages. Those borrowed features of the language are sometimes precise incorporation of the the parent languages and are just as often or more frequently modified, especially in pronunciation. English, like many other languages, is phonic with regard to the written language with the words implying pronunciation as well as meaning, but never precisely. The phonic characteristics of the English language leads often to the bastardized pronunciation of incorporated foreign words and phrases. English grammar is very malleable with regard to word order and sentence structure as well. And Colloquialisms abound in English. Finally, English has a variety of regional dialects.
Click to expand...

True, English has Gothic and Germanic roots, which is why it is called Anglo-Saxon.

We here in Italy have mainly French-derived words, and it is curious how in some parts of Emilia Romagna, particularly Parma, their dialect/accent is very reminiscent of French as is the French 'r'. Ditto for the Milanese dialect, it has many transalpine inflections.
The Calabrian dialect, on the other hand, is very reminiscent of Arabic and sometimes Greek (Calabria is strongly linked to Greece).
In Italy we have another language and that is Sardinian. It is not a dialect, but a real language that comes from the Phoenicians.

Grammatically, English is certainly simpler than Italian, which I consider ancient and modern at the same time.

I have the vague feeling that we are slightly off topic!

Maybe Morning Glory could move these comments in 'How do we communicate' thread ?
 
The main difficulty with English language here is dubbing/voice over for all sort of movies/documentaries/adv/cartoons which comes from outside Italy. Dubbing (doppiaggio) which I also do sometimes for advs, it’s a big part of our cultural heritage which comes from the past (it’s a long story) that it would be unacceptable not to have it.
We have great dubbers, yet I fully understand that this is an issue to be familiar and have an ear about English language. Of course when you watch a DVD or watching Netflix, etc, you can switch on the original language with or without subtitles, but it’s not enough.
This is generally speaking, I have colleagues and friends who are very good in English.
 
MypinchofItaly said:
The main difficulty with English language here is dubbing/voice over for all sort of movies/documentaries/adv/cartoons which comes from outside Italy. Dubbing (doppiaggio) which I also do sometimes for advs, it’s a big part of our cultural heritage which comes from the past (it’s a long story) that it would be unacceptable not to have it.
We have great dubbers, yet I fully understand that this is an issue to be familiar and have an ear about English language. Of course when you watch a DVD or watching Netflix, etc, you can switch on the original language with or without subtitles, but it’s not enough.
This is generally speaking, I have colleagues and friends who are very good in English.
Click to expand...
I watch a lot of Italian horror/gialli (Bava, Argento, etc), and way back when I first started watching those (late'70's), I was always intrigued by how the voices sounded sort of...disembodied, even when, through lip-reading, it was obvious the actors were speaking the same language as the dub.

Then I read a book on Italian filmmaking and discovered that it was almost always the directors' preference to film, then go back and dub in the dialogue, whether it was to dub in a different language or not. I thought that was interesting.
 
It can be interesting to read different translations of books, as they are sometimes very different. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times Don Quixote, for example, has been translated into English, but the translations have evolved over the years so that a modern translation will look very different from one that was done, say, at the beginning of the 20th century. For another example, I've read a couple of different versions of Madame Bovary that have quite a significant number of differences that give slightly differing nuances and connotations.
 
TastyReuben said:
I watch a lot of Italian horror/gialli (Bava, Argento, etc), and way back when I first started watching those (late'70's), I was always intrigued by how the voices sounded sort of...disembodied, even when, through lip-reading, it was obvious the actors were speaking the same language as the dub.

Then I read a book on Italian filmmaking and discovered that it was almost always the directors' preference to film, then go back and dub in the dialogue, whether it was to dub in a different language or not. I thought that was interesting.
Click to expand...

First of all, congratulations because Bava and Argento are certainly great directors and cornerstones of the Italian horror genre.

Yes, it's true, once upon a time there was this custom of dubbing films, not only horror films but all genres, be they comedies or dramas. One of the main reasons for this was that perhaps during filming, the voice of the actor or actors was 'dirtied' by background noise or that the voice was not 'clean' enough or not particularly effective. This is more rarely used nowadays, current post production works real miracles.
I studied dubbing professionally and I happened to dub a few small parts, especially in animated films and some TV series. It's fascinating how the voice can spread across the face of an actress or a cartoon. In advertising it's completely different, it's all a bit colder.

Although I really love dubbing and the excellent voices we have here, whether male or female, I still say that it takes away a lot of linguistic exercise that would be useful, especially for English.
I must also say that for phonetic assonance Italian is closer to Spanish. Many Italians prefer Spanish because they recognise a certain affinity, which is not the case with English.
I think I'm a case apart. Probably because in third grade I started studying English and I still remember that wonderful English (or maybe Irish) girl with red hair and a very pale complexion who made me love the English language. I couldn't wait until Saturday for English lesson. Other classmates were listless, they didn't like it, they found it boring and even difficult, I found it fun and my shyness disappeared with Sioban. I always had my hand up to answer ' Me! Me! I know it! I know it!'
 
Last edited:
Duck59 said:
It can be interesting to read different translations of books, as they are sometimes very different. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times Don Quixote, for example, has been translated into English, but the translations have evolved over the years so that a modern translation will look very different from one that was done, say, at the beginning of the 20th century. For another example, I've read a couple of different versions of Madame Bovary that have quite a significant number of differences that give slightly differing nuances and connotations.
Click to expand...

I had the same experience and I have also often found titles of films and TV series translated from English into Italian, sometimes in a completely marketing-friendly form - therefore sometimes a little ridiculous. I suppose, however, that certain translations would simply not give the right meaning or won't be understood in the target country. Not that will change completely the course of the story but certainly some nuances and connotations, as you say.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom