Recipe Stroganoff’s – Authentic and not so…

[Ken Natton]

Interesting point – does Stroganoff go under stew? Never had to classify it in that way before.


So I have decided to presume to offer a recipe for stroganoff. Or actually not just one recipe but a couple of different versions. Of course this is not my recipe – quite apart from the dish’s provenance, discussed on another thread – this is an amalgam of a couple of different cook-book versions I have encountered and a number of different TV chef versions I have seen. I have been cooking this dish for years.


So, ingredients. The classic version of course is beef and if you want to make the extra special version, it has to be fillet. Good rump steak also makes an excellent, slightly more economic stroganoff. With chicken stroganoff, I would suggest using breast meat. The usual objections to breast meat, that it has no flavour and that it gets dry too easily will not be a problem with this dish.

Onion – about half an onion per two people, chopped medium to fine I would suggest. Leek for the chicken version.

Mushrooms – I would tend to use the larger than button type – chestnut are good – maybe four or five per person, sliced

Paprika – for the classic beef version certainly, I prefer nutmeg for the chicken version

Alcohol – The Two Fat Ladies, I recall, used port. I have seen some recipes suggest using brandy and even going the full flambé 9 yards. I think the idea most prevalent among the chefs is to use red wine – about a glass. White wine for the chicken version. However, I don’t tend to use any alcohol. I’m not actually sure what it adds. If you are aware of what it adds then probably you have a finer palette than I do.

Stock – beef or chicken as appropriate, but not too much. When I am making a two-person stroganoff I make about a half-pint of stock and don’t expect to use it all.

Sour cream – many recipes say you can use natural yoghurt. For me sour cream is the only option.

Parsley – optional of course, to me, more about the look than the flavour.


Method.

So the classic version first:

Get your pan nice and hot, and brown the meat very quickly in a little oil. Add the onion and soften a little. Add the mushrooms and fry for a short time. This is the point to add the paprika and then the alcohol. After adding the alcohol, reduce it just a little then add the stock to make the fluid to about the right level. Season. Simmer and reduce for maybe 10 mintues. Add the sour cream – again not too much – a couple of minutes before the end and sprinkle in the chopped parsley just before serving.


So here’s the alternative method, from a farmhouse cookbook, the first stroganoff recipe I encountered, before I understood how it’s supposed to be done. Warning: Some people might find this offensive.

Am I joking? Well you start by making the sauce. Worse than that, you start by making a roux. What! Yes, a roux. You add the spice and a little tomato puree to the roux. Then you thin it with the stock. Am I serious?! Then you add your sour cream to that and re-heat it. As it comes back to the boil you will get a little of the milk protein and flour reaction and get some thickening. Getting the right consistency and the right amount of sauce is just about experience.

So then you fry your meat separately, add it to the sauce, soften the onion, add it to the sauce, and saute the mushrooms and add them to the sauce. Bring it all back to the boil and simmer for ten minutes or so. Optional parsley at the end as before.

The main downside of this version is not making the sauce in the pan you fried the meat in, which everyone knows is how you should do it. And of course, using flour, which for this kind of sauce, these days, is almost a crime against humanity. But there is an upside.

The main problem with the classic version is getting the onions and mushrooms cooked right and the sauce suitably reduced without overcooking the meat. The whole heart of what is wonderful about this dish is soft and tender meat. You could, of course, remove the meat after browning while you cook the onions and mushrooms, create and reduce the sauce, and then add the meat back again at the end. But the beauty of the method of making the sauce first is that there is no such problem. You literally add the meat to the sauce after doing no more than browning it, it’ll cook in the sauce and you just have to get the simmer time right to get the result you want – a flavoursome sauce with soft and moist meat.

But one thing is for sure. The second method is definitely not authentic. Don’t know what she was thinking, the woman who wrote that cook book…

 

[GadgetGuy]

Interesting point – does Stroganoff go under stew? Never had to classify it in that way before.


So I have decided to presume to offer a recipe for stroganoff. Or actually not just one recipe but a couple of different versions. Of course this is not my recipe – quite apart from the dish’s provenance, discussed on another thread – this is an amalgam of a couple of different cook-book versions I have encountered and a number of different TV chef versions I have seen. I have been cooking this dish for years.


So, ingredients. The classic version of course is beef and if you want to make the extra special version, it has to be fillet. Good rump steak also makes an excellent, slightly more economic stroganoff. With chicken stroganoff, I would suggest using breast meat. The usual objections to breast meat, that it has no flavour and that it gets dry too easily will not be a problem with this dish.

Onion – about half an onion per two people, chopped medium to fine I would suggest. Leek for the chicken version.

Mushrooms – I would tend to use the larger than button type – chestnut are good – maybe four or five per person, sliced

Paprika – for the classic beef version certainly, I prefer nutmeg for the chicken version

Alcohol – The Two Fat Ladies, I recall, used port. I have seen some recipes suggest using brandy and even going the full flambé 9 yards. I think the idea most prevalent among the chefs is to use red wine – about a glass. White wine for the chicken version. However, I don’t tend to use any alcohol. I’m not actually sure what it adds. If you are aware of what it adds then probably you have a finer palette than I do.

Stock – beef or chicken as appropriate, but not too much. When I am making a two-person stroganoff I make about a half-pint of stock and don’t expect to use it all.

Sour cream – many recipes say you can use natural yoghurt. For me sour cream is the only option.

Parsley – optional of course, to me, more about the look than the flavour.


Method.

So the classic version first:

Get your pan nice and hot, and brown the meat very quickly in a little oil. Add the onion and soften a little. Add the mushrooms and fry for a short time. This is the point to add the paprika and then the alcohol. After adding the alcohol, reduce it just a little then add the stock to make the fluid to about the right level. Season. Simmer and reduce for maybe 10 mintues. Add the sour cream – again not too much – a couple of minutes before the end and sprinkle in the chopped parsley just before serving.


So here’s the alternative method, from a farmhouse cookbook, the first stroganoff recipe I encountered, before I understood how it’s supposed to be done. Warning: Some people might find this offensive.

Am I joking? Well you start by making the sauce. Worse than that, you start by making a roux. What! Yes, a roux. You add the spice and a little tomato puree to the roux. Then you thin it with the stock. Am I serious?! Then you add your sour cream to that and re-heat it. As it comes back to the boil you will get a little of the milk protein and flour reaction and get some thickening. Getting the right consistency and the right amount of sauce is just about experience.

So then you fry your meat separately, add it to the sauce, soften the onion, add it to the sauce, and saute the mushrooms and add them to the sauce. Bring it all back to the boil and simmer for ten minutes or so. Optional parsley at the end as before.

The main downside of this version is not making the sauce in the pan you fried the meat in, which everyone knows is how you should do it. And of course, using flour, which for this kind of sauce, these days, is almost a crime against humanity. But there is an upside.

The main problem with the classic version is getting the onions and mushrooms cooked right and the sauce suitably reduced without overcooking the meat. The whole heart of what is wonderful about this dish is soft and tender meat. You could, of course, remove the meat after browning while you cook the onions and mushrooms, create and reduce the sauce, and then add the meat back again at the end. But the beauty of the method of making the sauce first is that there is no such problem. You literally add the meat to the sauce after doing no more than browning it, it’ll cook in the sauce and you just have to get the simmer time right to get the result you want – a flavoursome sauce with soft and moist meat.

But one thing is for sure. The second method is definitely not authentic. Don’t know what she was thinking, the woman who wrote that cook book…

Do you have a pic of it?

 

[Morning Glory]

Well the second recipe certainly sounds dreadful. Your recipe looks much better. But I'm a bit confused. If I'm reading the above method correctly:

Get your pan nice and hot, and brown the meat very quickly in a little oil. Add the onion and soften a little. Add the mushrooms and fry for a short time. This is the point to add the paprika and then the alcohol. After adding the alcohol, reduce it just a little then add the stock to make the fluid to about the right level. Season. Simmer and reduce for maybe 10 mintues. Add the sour cream – again not too much – a couple of minutes before the end and sprinkle in the chopped parsley just before serving.

You only talk about simmering for 10 minutes. Surely that is far too short a time for the meat to become tender.

 

[Cinisajoy]

Well the second recipe certainly sounds dreadful. Your recipe looks much better. But I'm a bit confused. If I'm reading the above method correctly:


You only talk about simmering for 10 minutes. Surely that is far too short a time for the meat to become tender.

Not if the meat is super thinly sliced.

 

[Ken Natton]

You only talk about simmering for 10 minutes. Surely that is far too short a time for the meat to become tender.

Not if the meat is super thinly sliced.

Okay, first thing, I did forget to mention that didn’t I? You do have to slice the meat. Don’t try making stroganoff with a whole steak!!!

And there is a discussion point there. A couple of times when I have seen stroganoff in a restaurant, the strips are cut really small. For me that is a pity. When I make a stroganoff with fillet steak, even if the fillet steak is quite thick, I will cut slices that are maybe 5mm thick but are the whole cross section of the steak. If you like strips that are a bit more square in profile, then I would suggest you shouldn’t cut them too small.

But again, morning glory, I would suggest you need to keep your simmer times down to get the best effect. Certainly rump steak would need a little longer than fillet, but not too much more. I am certainly not advocating making the chicken version rare. When I make it I use pieces that, I dunno, are maybe about 10-12mm cuboid – of course the reality is not quite as regular as that but you get the point – and if you cut one of the pieces in the final dish they are cooked through to the middle. But even with the chicken, if you do it right, you should get a real melt in the mouth effect. Chicken actually cooks very quickly. And fillet steak is pretty tender when it is raw. When I order a steak, I never have it any rarer than medium rare, but the steak in your stroganoff shouldn’t be at all rare, but should be soft and moist like rare steak. All I can say, I have got quite good at timing starting the rice a little after I have started the dish. And by the time the rice is ready on a 15 minute simmer I am usually happy that the stroganoff is ready. I can’t believe the simmer time of the dish can have been much more than 10 minutes, and whatever the result, tough or chewy it certainly isn’t. I suppose my suggestion would be, if you are going to cook it – follow your instincts, and if the result isn’t that great, then have the courage to shorten the simmer time next time and see if it is any better. But if you overcook the meat – or cut pieces that are too small – you aren’t getting the dish at its best. It seems to me.

Do you have a pic of it?

I have gathered that you like photos of the food here, food photography is actually an art form in its own right, sometimes getting a picture that does justice to the dish is not that easy. But my real concern is that if I start taking pictures of everything I cook, my family are going to think that I have become an awful narcissist. Anyway, next time I cook the dish, I’ll see what I can do.

 

[Morning Glory]

I have gathered that you like photos of the food here, food photography is actually an art form in its own right, sometimes getting a picture that does justice to the dish is not that easy. But my real concern is that if I start taking pictures
of everything I cook, my family are going to think that I have become an awful narcissist. Anyway, next time I cook the dish, I’ll see what I can do.

Yea, we like photos! Its possible to take first rate photos on a smartphone! But there are a few guidelines which help. I'll try to post something...

 

[Morning Glory]

But again, morning glory, I would suggest you need to keep your simmer times down to get the best effect.

I note your points. I'm not very confident about cooking steak - too many tough steaks! Its my weak point, because otherwise I'm an experienced cook.

 

[Ken Natton]

...because otherwise I'm an experienced cook.

I am sure you are, and actually I make no great claims. I can cook a stroganoff because, as I’ve said, I’ve cooked it once or twice before. But my repertoire is very limited.


Here’s a little anecdote just to put a perspective on stroganoff. I used to like to think my ability to cook a decent stroganoff was a badge I could wear. Until I saw a particular episode of Masterchef, where one of the contestants, and it must have been the latter stages of the competition because he had already proved himself a pretty decent cook, but on this occasion, he had a big problem. As I recall, it was an invention test, and he had originally intended to do something else entirely different, but he had a bit of a disaster and was actually in danger of having nothing to put up. So, in the crisis of the moment, out of what he had, he managed to salvage a chicken stroganoff. And when he took it up for judgement, John Torode and Greg Wallace were agreed it was very nice. “But mate,” said John Torode “it’s just a stroganoff!” So that’s the point about stroganoff. It’s a lovely dish. But any silly whatname from Bolton can cook it.

 

[Morning Glory]

“But mate,” said John Torode “it’s just a stroganoff!” So that’s the point about stroganoff. It’s a lovely dish. But any silly whatname from Bolton can cook it.

A bit unfair I think - but its TV! Stroganoff is a rather old fashioned dish - popular in the 50's to 70's (maybe 80's), I think. I have a 50's cookery book (written by a Hungarian woman) which has a recipe. She also has a recipe for Hungarian Goulash which is a similarly 'out of fashion' dish. I will photograph the recipes from the books tomorrow (easier than typing them out!). It will be interesting to compare.

 

[GadgetGuy]

I've made the hamburg version of this many times!

 

[Ken Natton]

Stroganoff is a rather old fashioned dish - popular in the 50's to 70's (maybe 80's), I think. I have a 50's cookery book (written by a Hungarian woman) which has a recipe. She also has a recipe for Hungarian Goulash which is a similarly 'out of fashion' dish. I will photograph the recipes from the books tomorrow (easier than typing them out!). It will be interesting to compare.

It’s funny, that’s the first time I’ve ever thought about it being old fashioned. Understand, I am sure you are right, it just hadn’t particularly occurred to me. My wife and I both love it, one of the reason I have cooked it so much is because my wife asks for it. And the chicken version is one of the few dishes I can cook and expect the teenagers to eat without any great struggle. The younger teenager doesn’t like it if I put parsley in. I mean parsley. It’s not about the flavour. He just doesn’t like the green flecks on his meat.

I would definitely be very interested in the goulash recipe. I once attempted to make it, maybe eighteen months ago, and if I remember correctly, it was Nigella Lawson’s recipe that I used. But what I came up with was definitely not authentic, not even vaguely akin. I mean it was a nice beef stew, but it had nothing of the distinctive character of Hungarian Goulash. Actually, I think Elawin might well have hit on the point. The dish I am thinking of is the one I have had when on skiing holidays, which is Gulaschsuppe. And I am serious, it is even possible that I have never actually had proper Hungarian Goulash. I just took it to be that they were basically the same dish with one being just a soupier version of the other. What Elawin says seems to suggest that might not be quite right. Anyway, if you post the recipe up, photocopies are fine by me, I might well have a go at it. Sometime.

 

[Morning Glory]

This is the recipe for Stroganoff from the 1950's recipe book by Maria Kozslik Donovan:

 

[Morning Glory]

Here are another two recipes for Stroganoff from Sainsbury's Cookbook of Russia (1990). One of the authors is Russian so I assume this is reasonably 'authentic'.

 

[Ken Natton]

Well there you go, the first recipe is using stewing steak. It is very clear, if you are using stewing steak, you are going to have to simmer it for a lot longer. I mean, more like an hour. And that is just contrary to everything that I understand this dish to be. That was why I was a little baffled about where to put this. It isn’t really a stew. You don’t really need to stew the meat at all – if you get the right meat, of course.


The second recipe does mention fillet and does seem to be much closer to the recipe that I understand. Except, I confess, I have no idea what Smetana is. Since the recipe does not mention sour cream, presumably that is the actual Russian equivalent? Actually, the second recipe in the second book has provoked another memory for me. I said I recalled that The Two Fat Ladies used port as the alcohol, now that you have reminded me, I am pretty sure that they did also add mustard to the dish. And neither of these recipes mention paprika, and my belief, my understanding, is that paprika is almost as defining an ingredient as is the sour cream.


But in terms of the quality of the cut of meat and the cooking times, I am certain that the version I gave is closer to the various TV chef versions I have seen than either of the printed versions here. I mean, I know the second one is using fillet and does offer much shorter cooking times, but my concern is when it says that the beef should be ‘thoroughly cooked’ and then mentions significant further cooking time. Again, I am not suggesting that it shouldn’t be cooked, but it shouldn’t be overcooked. As I have said, the moist and tender nature of the meat is what this dish is all about, from my understanding.


Actually, this all kind of proves the original point. Even when the dish is invented by an individual chef, there is still no single version that anyone can point to and say is ’authentic’. And, as I am sure we all agree, there is only one thing that actually matters. When you have cooked it, is the result any good?

 

[Morning Glory]

I have no idea what Smetana is. Since the recipe does not mention sour cream, presumably that is the actual Russian equivalent?

That's correct. There is a recipe for Smetana elsewhere in the book.

And neither of these recipes mention paprika,

The first one from the 1950's book does.