Is there ever a valid use of the word ‘authentic’?

Ken Natton

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I once heard a guy on the radio – and I should be clear, he was not talking particularly about food but more generally – and his unequivocal contention was that the word ‘authentic’ is only ever used as a way to say ‘I is bet’er ‘n you.’


I wasn’t quite so unequivocal as him, but I was certainly already aware of the spurious use of the word in a food context. I recall talking with someone once whose particular bee in his bonnet was about the fact that British people tend to put mushrooms in their Bolognese sauce. ‘Authentic’ Bolognese sauce does not have mushrooms, he contended. Now he might have a point about what an average Italian mama from Bologna would and wouldn’t use, but at the time, my thought about it was the mistaken idea that what the average British person made and saw fit to call Bolognese sauce was made inauthentic only by the presence of mushrooms. But recently, and I’m sorry to mention it again but it is just too pertinent to this point – on that Rick Stein episode in Bologna, he was invited to a typical Italian mama’s house who cooked for him a Bolognese sauce. So what do you think she used? Pure beef? 50% beef and 50% pork? No, she used tuna fish. And if you think that I am suggesting that authentic Bolognese sauce uses tuna fish, you are missing the point. The point is, if you are an actual Italian mama from Bologna, you are not constrained by any spurious notions of authenticity.


So another excellent case in point, another dish that seems to arouse passions around ideas of authenticity, is Hungarian Goulash. It’s an old peasant dish, as probably everyone is aware. Except that, the dish, as prepared by actual Hungarian shepherds on actual Hungarian hillsides, was not so identifiably constant. Until, in the 19th century, Austro-Hungarian chefs picked up on the dish and came up with a restaurantified version of it. And it is that restaurantified version that people think of when they talk of ‘authentic’ Hungarian Goulash.


And the other case in point I would like to cite is Stroganoff. That’s a dish I have seen demoed by various TV chefs, including Keith Floyd, the Two Fat Ladies, The Hairy Bikers and yes, Rick Stein. And all of them begin by telling you that the dish was invented by a particular chef. Take a wild guess at what his name was. The key here is that the dish he invented is Beef’Stroganoff. There are those who get very upset by the idea that you should make a dish and call it Chicken Stroganoff. But I make Chicken Stroganoff. Okay, so maybe, if it offends you so much, maybe I should call it chicken in a sour cream sauce. But don’t tell me that I shouldn’t make it, cause here’s the deal with Chicken Stroganoff. Its yummy.


So tell me, in a food context, is there ever a valid use of the word ‘authentic’?
 
Can I have the recipe for Ken Natton's Authentic Chicken Stroganoff? Or would that be Authentic Ken Natton Chicken Stroganoff since it is your recipe.
I was under the impression that Stroganoff means sour cream sauce.
Not sure about the word authentic in cooking. It just means genuine.
 
Authentic means 'of undisputed origin and not a copy; genuine'. But of course in terms of cooking its an impossible thing to prove. We can prove that a painting is an authentic painting by Titian or that a gold bracelet is an authentic example of the Iron Age (it was on the news today!). But these items are actual objects from the past which can be scientifically analysed.

The wonderful and (I think) exciting thing about recipes and cooking them is that they are mutable. Ingredients will vary in quality according to season. The climate can affect cooking results (think about bread and how yeast reacts to different temperatures). I could go on. If we look for authenticity in cookery then we are chasing a dream...

We can approximate a recipe, we can make something different or better or perhaps we can ruin it - but we can't hope to replicate it exactly. And to my mind, that is the joy. Every time I cook, I'm both a conservative (with labour thrown in!) and an anarchist. :D
 
Authentic means 'of undisputed origin and not a copy; genuine'. But of course in terms of cooking its an impossible thing to prove. We can prove that a painting is an authentic painting by Titian or that a gold bracelet is an authentic example of the Iron Age (it was on the news today!). But these items are actual objects from the past which can be scientifically analysed.

The wonderful and (I think) exciting thing about recipes and cooking them is that they are mutable. Ingredients will vary in quality according to season. The climate can affect cooking results (think about bread and how yeast reacts to different temperatures). I could go on. If we look for authenticity in cookery then we are chasing a dream...

We can approximate a recipe, we can make something different or better or perhaps we can ruin it - but we can't hope to replicate it exactly. And to my mind, that is the joy. Every time I cook, I'm both a conservative (with labour thrown in!) and an anarchist. :D
Leavenings also reacts to different altitudes. Water boils at different temperatures too.
Candies don't set well in humid climates.
 
Can I have the recipe for Ken Natton's Authentic Chicken Stroganoff? Or would that be Authentic Ken Natton Chicken Stroganoff since it is your recipe.
I was under the impression that Stroganoff means sour cream sauce.

Well, actual recipes, of course are supposed to go elsewhere on the forum, (see I told you I’d behave myself). If you really want me to give it as a recipe then I will, but we can discuss it here like this: Classic Beef Stroganoff would use fillet steak, the thing being, because you have then cut it into strips it cooks very quickly. And you get a very tender and very moist result without having to have it too rare if that is a problem for you. Also, with beef stroganoff you would use onion and mushrooms, and the classic spice to use is paprika. When I make a chicken stroganoff, I will tend to use breast meat only – with so many other chicken dishes I like to mix breast and thigh meat – and cut it more chunky than in strips, so again you can brown it quite quickly and simmer for only ten minutes or so, and the result you get is cooked, but soft and moist. With Chicken Stroganoff I prefer to use leek rather than onion, mushrooms just the same, and the spice I use with Chicken Stroganoff– purely personal preference – is nutmeg. Also, I tend to add a little (and I mean a little) tomato puree to the sauce – not really for flavour, more for the colour it gives the sauce. You are right, the key identifying ingredient is the sour cream but I think one of the important things with the beef or chicken version is not to overdo the cream. When making for just two (which I often do, my kids prefer pizzas and ribs and burgers) I would only put one spoonful in.


Another variation I have done sometimes is essentially to make a stroganoff sauce without any meat and use it to coat tagliatelle, then serve a pan fried and oven cooked chicken breast, sliced just before serving and placed on top of the pasta. It is still essentially Chicken Stroganoff.


One interesting side point, relevant to the point of this thread – certainly here in the UK the usual thing stroganoff is served with is rice. But apparently, on the authority of those TV chefs, it was originally served with long thin strips of crispy potato.
 
And the other case in point I would like to cite is Stroganoff. That’s a dish I have seen demoed by various TV chefs, including Keith Floyd, the Two Fat Ladies, The Hairy Bikers and yes, Rick Stein. And all of them begin by telling you that the dish was invented by a particular chef. Take a wild guess at what his name was.

Maybe its late but I'm confused by this. Which Chef are you talking about?

Beef Stroganoff dates back to the 18th century and is named after the Russian Count, Pavel Aleksandrovich Stroganoff. According to the cookbook A Taste of Russia, the original beef Stroganoff recipe is based on a basic French mustard for seasoning beef, combined with Russian sour cream, which Stroganoff's chef named after his benefactor. I don't know what Stroganoff's chef was called though!

I must confess, I've never attempted to make it. But maybe I should!
 
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So another excellent case in point, another dish that seems to arouse passions around ideas of authenticity, is Hungarian Goulash. It’s an old peasant dish, as probably everyone is aware. Except that, the dish, as prepared by actual Hungarian shepherds on actual Hungarian hillsides, was not so identifiably constant. Until, in the 19th century, Austro-Hungarian chefs picked up on the dish and came up with a restaurantified version of it. And it is that restaurantified version that people think of when they talk of ‘authentic’ Hungarian Goulash.
There is a very good article in Wikipedia about goulash - it is enough to scare the pants off anyone and certainly gives you something to think about!

I have looked in my Austrian cookery book and there are three recipes in there plus a recipe for Gulaschsuppe. The first recipe consists of beef, veal, onions, butter, paprika, tomatoes and parsley, and served with mashed potatoes; the second is made from beef, several onions, garlic, stock, paprika, caraway seeds and butter, and is served with dumplings, macaroni or noodles; and the third from beef, onion, cloves, vinegar, caraway seeds, and paprika, served with macaroni or noodles - this one is also known as Kümmelfleisch, which is probably an indication of the fact that it contains far more caraway seeds than paprika.

I would eye the first version with suspicion because it contains tomatoes and is served with mash. I never once had tomatoes whenever I was in Austria except maybe once*, and the only time I ever had mashed potatoes they were leftovers (more akin to bubble and squeak patties). Similarly, the third one - aka Kümmelfleisch says it all. The second one would probably be more like it, although we never had Gulasch served with dumplings, macaroni or noodles - more of that later.

The most interesting recipe, however, is the one for Gulaschsuppe. It is made from beef, onion, paprika, marjoram, garlic, flour, cooked potatoes, and stock and it also contains bacon! Whilst the inclusion of flour and bacon makes this sound a bit suspect too, bacon fat may have been used at one time to fry the beef. There is a note in the recipe to say "here is a soup closely related to a true goulash". They should have also added "not to be confused with the Knorr packet soup of the same name", which is certainly nothing like the Gulaschsuppe I knew and loved.

My friend's mother used to use a "recipe" handed down in her family (and she was certainly born in the days of the Austro-Hungarian empire), and this consisted only of beef, onion, paprika, a little pepper, water, butter, and potatoes. The beef and onions were browned in the melted butter, paprika sprinkled over, and water added. This was cooked over a low heat for a donkey's age timewise, and quartered potatoes were added about an hour and a half before the end of cooking time. The lid would be removed and the stock allowed to thicken naturally. The colour was purely from the paprika (no tomatoes were ever added) and used to vary - probably due to how much meat was actually in the dish. There were no quantities; it all depended on the amount of meat available, and the quantity of potatoes would be increased if there wasn't much meat. A small amount of "cream" would be added upon serving - I say "cream" because it was usually the scrapings from the bottom of one of the milk churns before they were returned to the local dairy. It was a small village, about 20 miles from Salzburg, and very rural at the time. Milk in bottles was unheard of. It was delivered daily in churns - no fridges in them days! - and people used to by it by the jugful. This is the version I use, although I used to cook it in a pressure cooker/now cook it in a slow cooker, and would consider it to be an "authentic" recipe, or at least more "authentic" than the others.

*We did have goulash once in a restaurant in Salzburg. It was extremely bright in colour, and I suspect it may have had tomato puree added and may have been thickened with flour.
 
Maybe its late but I'm confused by this. Which Chef are you talking about?

Beef Stroganoff dates back to the 18th century and is named after the Russian Count, Pavel Aleksandrovich Stroganoff. According to the cookbook A Taste of Russia, the original beef Stroganoff recipe is based on a basic French mustard for seasoning beef, combined with Russian sour cream, which Stroganoff's chef named after his benefactor. I don't know what Stroganoff's chef was called though!

I must confess, I've never attempted to make it. But maybe I should!

Yeah, you are right, Stroganoff was not the name of the chef but the aristocrat he worked for. The tale I have had is that he invented the dish, but he must at least have formalised it - it would seem a bit presumptuous to name a pre-existing dish, like claiming to be the composer of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. In any case, the point I was making is that there might be a slightly stronger case to assert that a very particular recipe is the 'authentic' version, but it still doesn't really matter. As you said, dishes, like species, tend to change over time.
 
I have looked in my Austrian cookery book and there are three recipes in there plus a recipe for Gulaschsuppe...

Ah, Gulaschsuppe. One of the greatest lunch time pleasures from a mountain side restaurant on a skiing holiday. It’s really just a thinner, soupier version of the full blown stew isn’t it? The main characteristic is that very red sauce, full of paprika. Maybe I only ever experienced the soupier version and never really had actual Hungarian Goulash! It is more than 10 years since I last went skiing.
 
@Ken Natton. I hope you will post some recipes as you are tempting us with so many snippets. At the moment we are in need of spinach recipes for The CookingBites Recipe Challenge. Please join in!

I’m afraid I have no great ideas for spinach. I am just not that kind of cook. Did you see the episode of Masterchef when the task they were set was to create a dish where the key ingredient was… coriander? One guy even made a desert – I kid you not – and it drew a great deal of praise, it was described as very clever. I’m afraid I am nowhere near that level. I once attempted to make ravioli with spinach and ricotta. I even made the pasta. I am still in counselling. My wife had to step in and rescue me from outright catastrophe. The final dish wasn’t so bad actually, but I was left feeling that it was all just far more trouble than it was worth.
 
Ah, Gulaschsuppe. One of the greatest lunch time pleasures from a mountain side restaurant on a skiing holiday. It’s really just a thinner, soupier version of the full blown stew isn’t it? The main characteristic is that very red sauce, full of paprika. Maybe I only ever experienced the soupier version and never really had actual Hungarian Goulash! It is more than 10 years since I last went skiing.
But there is red and then there is red, Ken. The goulash we had in the restaurant was too red for its own good :laugh:
 
I’m afraid I have no great ideas for spinach. I am just not that kind of cook
You would be surprised what can win the recipe challenge. The simpler the better in some cases. So it isn't about being clever. I do feel for you regarding the ravioli. Did it leak, by any chance? :happy:
 
Yeah, you are right, Stroganoff was not the name of the chef but the aristocrat he worked for. The tale I have had is that he invented the dish, but he must at least have formalised it - it would seem a bit presumptuous to name a pre-existing dish, like claiming to be the composer of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. In any case, the point I was making is that there might be a slightly stronger case to assert that a very particular recipe is the 'authentic' version, but it still doesn't really matter. As you said, dishes, like species, tend to change over time.

OK. At least I'm not going bonkers and misunderstanding! Its my greatest fear... :eek:
 
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