Christmas - do you love it or hate it?

Hemulen

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Oh really, and do you have any peer reviewed proof that Hippopotamus of Rome was compos mentis at the time and not allowing his scribe Biggus Dikkus to wing it ?
No, I have no proof. Religion just seems a simpler and "saner" solution to deal with the origin of the first physical particles, the infinite cosmos and the concept of self-awareness and biologically unexplainable things like species-extrinsic (non-intraspecific) compassion than trying to stick to mere senses, sporadic calculations, scientific (often subjectively orientated and qualitative) studies and quantitative measurements made during the last couple hundred years of human history.
Sorry, it was copied from the pagan Yule/midwinter rebirth of the light festival which is not even mentioned in your quote.

Yule - Wikipedia
In my opinion what was copied to Christian Christmas (from the pagan Yule/midwinter festival) was a continuum of social habits, customs and decorations. Moreover, it goes both ways (in terms of habits and customs). Nobody knows what kinds of habits and belief systems existed earlier than in known historical records (which were mostly written or artistically supervised by sporadic patricians). Now they are interpreted by competing scholars and common men alike. I think it's nice that we're not a bunch of YES-men or YES-women but individuals 😍.
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Windigo

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In my opinion what was copied to Christian Christmas (from the pagan Yule/midwinter festival) was a continuum of social habits, customs and decorations. Moreover, it goes both ways (in terms of habits and customs). Nobody knows what kinds of habits and belief systems existed earlier than in known historical records (which were mostly written or artistically supervised by sporadic patricians). Now they are interpreted by competing scholars and common men alike. I think it's nice that we're not a bunch of YES-men or YES-women but individuals 😍.
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Hey, I totally agree with that. Christians have definitely made their own version which by now is also legit.

And we all love the party, so I am celebrating right with you 😍
 

TastyReuben

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Nobody knows what kinds of habits and belief systems existed earlier than in known historical records (which were mostly written or artistically supervised by sporadic patricians).
That, to me, is the most important point made so far.

That's what I'm alluding to when I say that I care only about what Christmas (or Easter, or Fourth Of July, for that matter) means today. The rest is a fun history exercise, but that's about it. It's nice to know where putting up a Christmas tree came from, but if it were suddenly discovered that humans a thousand years ago viewed trees as evil spirits and each family felt the need to murder one symbolically as a message to all the other trees to keep well behaved, would it change what I do today, in 2020? Hell no! I'm all about that tree! 🎄

I was raised in a pretty severe fundamentalist home. We weren't allowed to go trick-or-treating (poor me, huh?) because it was "satanism" and a way to lure children into the service of the devil. To me, after talking to kids at school the next day, it really just seemed like a day to haul in a buttload of candy and dress up...two of my favorite things. I really would love to see Ol' Scratch pop up and see what we've done to his holiday:

*POOF*
"So, my minions, have you kept Halloween pure and true to my message of evil and hate?! Have you spread discord and wickedness among yourselves?!"

"Ahhhh, well, we started to, maybe, but that was a lot of work. Now we mainly just dress the kids up like princesses, cowboys, that sort of thing, and send them round the houses for candy."

Sorry, we've bunged it up for you, haha!

And somebody help those poor dogs, they're getting it handed to them!
 

Hemulen

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Well I must be the oldest kid in the town. - - -
Seconded. We already have our tiny led lights in a large glass flower vase on the window sill. It's so dark outside.
Christmas is mainly for the kids. They seem to get more enjoyment out of it than adults do. When we were kids, we were showered with gifts, practically everything in the book!! School clothes, toys, you name it, we got it!! :whistling:
Shermie, now I see why you were (a bit) disappointed in another post for not getting any gifts anymore... You had plenty in your childhood. For me, Christmas is just as much for inner children as it is for kids. "Baba, bobo, da da, ma ma". I'm a perpetual googoo-head. I enjoy my adult life Christmases: I focus more on companionship, good food, tranquility, flickering candles, music and giving than on waiting eagerly
for Santa.
 
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Morning Glory

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This moderator is impressed by the standard of discussion about the meaning/origin of Christmas and the lack of swords being drawn in this thread (despite strongly held different beliefs). Keep it up please and agree to differ whilst presenting considered arguments. On any other forum this would probably lead to full scale war!

As for me, I'm an atheist but also bit of a hedonist - so I have a bit of fun at Christmas. I don't celebrate Christianity but I do celebrate the fact its a Winter solstice - which is, I suppose, pagan.
 

caseydog

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Its a beautiful church. I'm thinking there would be restrictions on numbers in the church this year?

I usually go to Christmas Eve services at my parent's Lutheran church, or my sister's mega-church (Lutheran also). Not a chance this year. Churches are required to follow the same rules as any other public places, despite all kinds of rhetoric about "infringing on religious rights." But, there will still be a packed house, even though masks will be required by Executive Order of the Governor. My parents went to Sunday services one time since churches re-opened during the summer. Most people were NOT wearing masks. My parents are 86 and 88 years old. They decided that it was too big a risk at their age. They watch live feeds of Sunday services online. My sister does the same.

My sister's mega-church usually does a spectacular Christmas Eve service. One year, they had a live performance by William Close and his Earth Harp. I went to that. It was amazing. The church has to be huge for the Earth Harp to be used.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sKYaKRx6VA


CD
 
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caseydog

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Actually the Saturnalia were already celebrating something religious since they were in honour of the God Saturn and were celebrated from 17th to 23rd December. The birth of Christ only prolonged the celebrations.
Frankly, I am not crying out for scandal, also because religiousness before Christ was more devout than the devout, and it has always been known that there was a basic paganism. It looks a bit like the discovering of warm water....

Personally, I'm more of a Festivus guy. It's for the rest of us, ya' know. I have a couple of 8-foot metal fence posts in the garage. Maybe I should put one up in the front garden. :p:

CD
 

caseydog

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I just love Christmas ❤. Sue me :D!

Then don't let the idea that it was once also a Pagan holiday bother you. As a former Lutheran church Elder, I know that, based on the Bible, Jesus would not have been born anywhere near December 25. Christmas is a celebration of Christian origin. It's just a celebration. Enjoy it however you want.

CD
 

rascal

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I usually go to Christmas Eve services at my parent's Lutheran church, or my sister's mega-church (Lutheran also). Not a chance this year. Churches are required to follow the same rules as any other public places, despite all kinds of rhetoric about "infringing on religious rights." But, there will still be a packed house, even though masks will be required by Executive Order of the Governor. My parents went to Sunday services one time since churches re-opened during the summer. Most people were NOT wearing masks. My parents are 86 and 88 years old. They decided that it was too big a risk at their age. They watch live feeds of Sunday services online. My sister does the same.

My sister's mega-church usually does a spectacular Christmas Eve service. One year, they had a live performance by William Close and his Earth Harp. I went to that. It was amazing. The church has to be huge for the Earth Harp to be used.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sKYaKRx6VA


CD

I don't know anything about Lutheran beliefs? I was raised Methodist. I'm prolly an atheist but I live by the 10 cardinal rules. I'm not afraid of dying at all.

Russ
 

Hemulen

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I don't know anything about Lutheran beliefs? I was raised Methodist. I'm prolly an atheist but I live by the 10 cardinal rules. I'm not afraid of dying at all.

Russ
Here's a link for you rascal. It's great that you're not afraid of dying. Neither am I.
Then don't let the idea that it was once also a Pagan holiday bother you. As a former Lutheran church Elder, I know that, based on the Bible, Jesus would not have been born anywhere near December 25. Christmas is a celebration of Christian origin. It's just a celebration. Enjoy it however you want.

CD
No, I won't let the idea of winter solstice being a natural phenomena first celebrated by ignorant cavemen (who noticed that days started to lengthen) and copied by pagans, Elders and welders or the uncertainty of Jesus' birth date sometime between ~4-6 AD bother me. I'll keep on examining scientific journals, keeping an open mind and celebrating Christmas in a traditional manner. It's a free world (inside our heads) although Covid has locked us down. I love Christmas (vol 5)! 🎼🎶🎵🎄⛄ 🍗
 

rascal

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Here's a link for you rascal. It's great that you're not afraid of dying. Neither am I.

No, I won't let the idea of winter solstice being a natural phenomena first celebrated by ignorant cavemen (who noticed that days started to lengthen) and copied by pagans, Elders and welders or the uncertainty of Jesus' birth date sometime between ~4-6 AD bother me. I'll keep on examining scientific journals, keeping an open mind and celebrating Christmas in a traditional manner. It's a free world (inside our heads) although Covid has locked us down. I love Christmas (vol 5)! 🎼🎶🎵🎄⛄ 🍗

Thanks I enjoyed the read. I never knew much about the Lutherans.

Russ
 
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