How do we communicate?

I always feel that one of the hardest jobs around is translating a novel. You can't simply do a literal translation, you have to get right inside the meaning that is conveyed. Sometimes, it can be quite interesting to read different translations of the same novel as you can sometimes get very different versions.

Take for example one of the most translated novels of all time, Don Quixote. There are all sorts of different ways of interpreting it and no doubt there are versions in Spanish that are somewhat removed from Cervantes' original.
 
@morning glory
My Grandmother lost her sight to Glaucoma when Dad was very young - 4 or 5. I remember very little about her. She died when I was 5. Without visual cues she developed a sensitivity to audible cues. She could read a tone of voice, the slightest hesitancy. She could not see but she heard shifts in body language. Without sight she cared for my Grandfather and her 5 children. Cleaned house, did laundry, cooked, gardened, raised chickens, picked pecans and black berries. Baked cakes and bread, made jellies and jam. All without modern conveniences. She could clean fish faster than my sighted Father. She would wring a chicken's neck with a flick of her wrist and have it plucked and cleaned in nothing flat. Kind of off topic - sorry.
 
For my Undergraduate l dissertation I wrote about Méliès an early French film-maker. This entailed translating books from the French as there was little written about him in English in those days. That in itself was interesting as my French is, to say the least, basic. If only on-line translation tools had existed in those days! Crude as they sometimes are, it would have saved me a lot of time.

What reminded me of my dissertation was @Duck59 mentioning comparing and contrasting different styles of prose in his dissertation. As a starting point for the dissertation I used an example from a Kodak manual for amateur film-makers from the 1950's - my point being that the words it used, 'close-up' for example could be traced back to Méliès's early practice in the 1800's.
Should have tried Leeds, where a lot of his early work was done.
 
Fascinating thread @MypinchofItaly ! And very topical.



I'm not entirely sure about this. Certainly the means of communication have made huge progress over the past 20 years or so and I think is directly responsible for breaking down social, economic, sexual and racial barriers and creating a more tolerant world. I would like to think that your young Neapolitan friend would not encounter similar problems today. The flip side of this is that whilst we are more tolerant of each other, we are less tolerant of what we say to each other. Whilst I would never condone bad manners, let alone personal insult for any reason, there is irony in being more tolerant of belief and behaviour whilst at the same time being less tolerant of free speech. I forget who once said something along the lines of "I totally disagree with what he said, but with my life will defend his right to say it"

Being "offended" seems to be the latest, must have fashion accessory. It is interesting how the #me too phenomenon is developing, along with the backlash from some very eminent French ladies. Communication of a romantic nature is getting a bit of a shake up!

@epicuric I'm glad you appreciate it.
True, the media have taken giant steps. But with them also the quality of communication or is it just a question of opportunities that were not there before? Are the two things going hand in hand? I am not so sure that they have knocked down walls, they have certainly brought them to light, but it is a moment to turn around. Even now, after so many years, I think back to my young frightened classmate and Neapolitan friend. Yes, maybe with a certain type of globalization it would have had less problems and the shields would have been raised in its defense ...
Today, being "defenders" is very modern and social and people are more exposed to media shame (even if is still so)
freedom of opinion is still dangerously poised between being insulted and being excluded. But I am of the opinion that sometimes certain opinions are shots without any cultural foundation. But there are those who care to make it known to the world. And the world responds. I certainly do not start to insult those who think differently from me and I am very respectful, but I do not deny that sometimes certain opinions I would like to take apart because they are a bit spaced in the air ....
 
For my final dissertation, I had to choose an extract from an "everyday" text and a "literary" one. The idea was to do a textual analysis of the two works and compare and contrast. We had to look at various literary and linguistic theories and provide arguments for or against such theories.

The two books I used were a Prague travel guide and the Milan Kundera novel Ignorance, which is set in Prague. It was an interesting task. I must have done it reasonably well, though, because I got 89% as a mark, which I can assure you was somewhat higher than I'd anticipated. I won't bore anyone with the details too much, but I found it intriguing because I felt it helped me as both a reader and a writer.

How did it help you?
 
@epicuric I'm glad you appreciate it.
True, the media have taken giant steps. But with them also the quality of communication or is it just a question of opportunities that were not there before? Are the two things going hand in hand? I am not so sure that they have knocked down walls, they have certainly brought them to light, but it is a moment to turn around. Even now, after so many years, I think back to my young frightened classmate and Neapolitan friend. Yes, maybe with a certain type of globalization it would have had less problems and the shields would have been raised in its defense ...
Today, being "defenders" is very modern and social and people are more exposed to media shame (even if is still so)
freedom of opinion is still dangerously poised between being insulted and being excluded. But I am of the opinion that sometimes certain opinions are shots without any cultural foundation. But there are those who care to make it known to the world. And the world responds. I certainly do not start to insult those who think differently from me and I am very respectful, but I do not deny that sometimes certain opinions I would like to take apart because they are a bit spaced in the air ....
People tend to fear what they don't understand. Opening up new lines of communication brings understanding and hopefully, tolerance. Unfortunately, modern methods of communication can so easily be abused to promote false information more effectively. @MypinchofItaly, this topic would need a website all of its own!
 
How did it help you?

In the Irvine Welsh novel Skagboys, there is an intriguing moment that rang a bell with me. Renton, who is also the main protagonist in Trainspotting, has gone to Aberdeen University intending to study English Literature and History. However, he quickly decides to drop the former on the grounds that having to bring an analytical approach to reading novels will ruin his enjoyment of reading.

Now this was a thought that had occurred to me some time before it had done so to Renton and I could understand his viewpoint. What I found, though, was that rather than putting me off, bringing some kind of analysis to what I was reading helped me to understand all sorts of things. I found that I was taking context into account more, getting a feel for what the author was thinking about and picking up on clues and metaphors, by which I don't mean a metaphorical phrase, but rather where the author has used a person or event as an allusion to something else.

It also gave me an insight into various techniques that writers use. One example is foregrounding, where you can use different methods to bring a person, place or event into the light, so to speak. It's a similar idea to how a painter might work to highlight a subject in a painting. One simple method is to use repetition. In fact, the extract I chose from the Kundera novel I mentioned earlier has a number of successive sentences that begin "This was the Prague that..."

In summary, then, I found that bringing a certain degree of analysis to what I read helped me with both as a reader and a writer. I'm not suggesting that people should go into a deep textual analysis of everything one reads because a) that would be intensely boring, and b) it would probably take several years to read one book.
 
In the Irvine Welsh novel Skagboys, there is an intriguing moment that rang a bell with me. Renton, who is also the main protagonist in Trainspotting, has gone to Aberdeen University intending to study English Literature and History. However, he quickly decides to drop the former on the grounds that having to bring an analytical approach to reading novels will ruin his enjoyment of reading.

Now this was a thought that had occurred to me some time before it had done so to Renton and I could understand his viewpoint. What I found, though, was that rather than putting me off, bringing some kind of analysis to what I was reading helped me to understand all sorts of things. I found that I was taking context into account more, getting a feel for what the author was thinking about and picking up on clues and metaphors, by which I don't mean a metaphorical phrase, but rather where the author has used a person or event as an allusion to something else.

It also gave me an insight into various techniques that writers use. One example is foregrounding, where you can use different methods to bring a person, place or event into the light, so to speak. It's a similar idea to how a painter might work to highlight a subject in a painting. One simple method is to use repetition. In fact, the extract I chose from the Kundera novel I mentioned earlier has a number of successive sentences that begin "This was the Prague that..."

In summary, then, I found that bringing a certain degree of analysis to what I read helped me with both as a reader and a writer. I'm not suggesting that people should go into a deep textual analysis of everything one reads because a) that would be intensely boring, and b) it would probably take several years to read one book.

Interesting and I also know and like Irvine Welsh. "The skag.The other woman who can not be resisted."
And it reminds me of when I took a creative writing course about 5 years ago. I approached this course with the intent to write short stories and one day publish them (they are still drafts, alas) and my approach to it was quite light. Instead I struggled and discovered things that I did not imagine ... the analysis of texts for books, stories as well as the analysis of theatrical scripts and films, brought me to another dimension. The book I wanted to analyze was F. Dostoevskij's "Letters on Creativity" (which I have always adored) and his exploration of the mystery of man.
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I once spent a thrilling afternoon counting the nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs etc. in two text extracts and then collating the resulting data into a table. This was not because it was fun. I was attempting to use the information as part of a dissertation that was looking at various linguistic theories.

I'm not entirely sure what it proved, but my tutor seemed to like it.
 
I once spent a thrilling afternoon counting the nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs etc. in two text extracts and then collating the resulting data into a table. This was not because it was fun. I was attempting to use the information as part of a dissertation that was looking at various linguistic theories.

I'm not entirely sure what it proved, but my tutor seemed to like it.

A little like doing a market analysis and putting it in an excel sheet, but instead of the numbers there are verses, stories, words, interpretations ..
the warrior's journey or something ...
I have to retrieve my notes from that course ..
 
@classic33 In the course of my work, I came across a lady who was not English and not only was she deaf but she could not speak either. There was absolutely nothing wrong with her communication skills, however - she could sign, and she had a friend who could communicate in sign language; the friend used to have an interpreter to translate into English. Highly complicated but it worked. I have enough trouble trying to work out what some of the abbreviations the supermarket uses on their receipts :laugh:.

As far as watching TV or listening to the radio is concerned, although I am not totally deaf, I have a loop system which plugs into the TV and then transmits the sound to a receiver which my hearing aids can then pick up. I also have a decent pair of conventional headphones which are actually clearer. However, I still often rely on subtitles to be able to understand everything, particularly when people are speaking with regional accents. And I agree with @classic33, it is much easier to understand people when they are facing you, even if, like me, you can't lip read. One our infants' school teachers taught us all basic sign language even though at the time none of us needed it. I can still remember some bits and pieces of it after all this time. The loop system is used in a lot of shops and banks too, which is most useful.

Where I live in east London can be a nightmare, however. Most of the people who live around me are not English, but Ghanaian, Nigerian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Irish, Scottish, south Asian, Chinese, Turkish and Polish, and not all can even speak English. My own extended family includes people whose native languages are Peruvian Spanish, Mandarin (and what is now known as standard Chinese), Arabic, French, Amharic, amongst others, and my own immediate family speak English, German and Greek - or to be more accurate a mixture of English, German and Greek when we are all together - it's easier. My granddaughters were quite gob-smacked the first time they heard me speaking German and Greek, as they never realised that I could speak these languages as well even though it became obvious when they thought about it. At school, we had to learn French, German and Latin, and in later years there I started learning Russian and Italian, but I can't remember more than the odd few works of either of these. I have friends who are Austrian, so a bit of Austrian German crept in, and I lived just outside Stuttgart so Schwäbisch was often the order of the day. I learnt Greek in Greece and also in Germany. I can read it (although not necessarily understand all of it), but can't write it. The most useful language out of all of these was German. I've worked for various transport companies over the years, and most of the Romanian, Greek and (then) Yugoslav drivers could speak some German, although I did find out at one of the transport companies I worked at that I had more luck communicating in colloquial Greek with the Greek drivers than that company's "posh" Greek director:laugh:

As far as communication is concerned - with my family and friends, text messages, phone calls, Skype, Vyber, and Facebook are the most usual ones. My daughter and I usually text each other - she is a teacher and deputy department head and can often be busy with school work quite late in the evening, even more so when it is school exam (at the moment it's mock GCSEs) or GCSE marking time. Phone calls tend to be reserved for "important" stuff. One year, when the weather was particularly bad, my daughter, son-in-law, granddaughters and I even "did" Christmas by Skype. I think it was February or maybe March before we actually exchanged Christmas presents. Otherwise, it's emails. downloaded forms, face to face, and occasionally letter for anything more official.
 
I'm able to follow Nuacht on RTE, despite never having had any lesson in gaelic, if I'm allowed to listen. Suprises relatives and I'm unable to explain why I can follow it.

I prefer face to face communication, followed by phone calls. Followed by written letters(these days done on computer and printed, text messages over phonecalls if there's a chance the person may not be able to answer. E-mail if a quicker answer is required than would be possible by letter(Often sending the letter anyway, in which case the e-mail will have the same letter attached).

The arm and hand signals were nearly all standard ones. Some of those in the factory were non standard, but easy to understand and answer. In the shop, it became a case of having to learn how to serve customers who were deaf, blind or problems with speech. At times reverting to pen and paper, or simply pointing to what was wanted. May have taken longer, but done non the less.
 
In the US we are spoiled to a single language system - American English. A shame. So many of you across the pond are bilingual or multi lingual. A necessity for doing business. I am embarrassed by my lack of language. We are a vain, arrogant nation. We think that all nations should speak our language. The sad thing is that our elected leaders have a very poor concept of the use of language. OOOKAY - I will not get on a rant.

@MypinchofItaly :thankyou: for a very interesting topic of conversation.
 
I spent much of my linguistics course railing against the theories of the Formalists. The leading proponent of this theory was a Russian linguist called Roman Jakobson. Without going too heavily into all of this, the basic idea is that everything is about literary content; Formalists are unconcerned about things like historical or socio-political context. It's all about the style and aethestic appearance.

To me, this is a classic case of style over substance. I'm reminded of the 1980s New Romantics. Yes, now and then, you got some decent music, but ultimately it was all about looking good. Literature surely must have a meaning. What is the point of pretty writing if it means nothing? Pretty vacant, I'd say.

Another quibble I have with this bunch is that they want literature to be a science. I refuse to buy into this in the least. Literature, along with poetry, drama and any other form of literary composition, is an art.
 
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