The General Chat Thread (2016-2022)

[caseydog]

The neighbor who lives across the hall called at my house again yesterday. It's the second or third time she has called me to say I need to call on her often because she feels very lonely. I really don't like this woman and I keep contact with her to a bare minimum. She complains about other neighbors for things like they walking in slippers in their home at 2AM or being awake too late, woke me up at 3AM because she was at her door yelling to the neighbor upstairs, leaves her trash bag on the hall of the building, has the TV so loud I listen to her soap opera every night, and I have a hunch she probably complains about me to the other neighbors' because that seems to be her style. She asked one of the neighbors to put a sign on the building saying it's mandatory to wear a mask inside, but she called on me not wearing a mask. I shrug it off because she's old, and her son works for the city council that manages this building. She's probably in her 60s, lives alone autonomously, seems fairly healthy, and is capable enough to cover her entire face in colorful makeup every time she goes out. She's lived in this area for 40 years, yet doesn't seem to have a friend whom she could call and meet for a walk outside, which makes me suspect she's not a likeable person. Her son lives nearby, but I think he only visits once or twice per week. She's not a fragile old lady abandoned in her house and I honestly don't feel a moral obligation to check on her.

I did knock on her door for a chat a while ago, she didn't return the favor for a long time so I thought we were good. I could check on her more often, but I have a gut feeling that will turn into her knocking on my door more frequently. I love spending time alone and I plan my weeks around quality alone time. I hate having people show up at my house unannounced, and this is non negotiable. I spend more time alone than most people I know, and I love it. I see a couple people every week, I have people I can call or message anytime and make plans with, being alone and knowing I can have company if I want is all I need to not feel lonely. And I do not understand how this woman would enjoy the company of someone who clearly shows no interest in spending time with her, because to me there's no company without connection. I have a very sociable job and whenever I felt lonely, superficial work interactions with people who have no genuine interest in me didn't make me less lonely.

This is something I have often wondered, how to navigate loneliness in old age. Some people seem like they want to rely on their children's company forever. But parents and children will always be in a different plane, it'll always be an imbalanced power relationship. Most people I know don't genuinely enjoy spending time with their parents. I know some people who do, but they have social circles their parents' are not a part of, and when they start their own families they're more busy and have less time available for the parents. Will I still enjoy being alone when I'm old? (I hope I do, that'll make my life much easier!). If I do have children, will I be so silly that I drop my entire social life for the sake of the children, and then expect my adult children to keep me company everyday when I'm old? I don't know...

That's not a rare thing. I had a neighbor who had adult children and grandchildren, and yet I was at her house weekly to fix something. She wasn't what I'd call a "nice" person, but she was very polite to me. Then one day, she saw me chatting with another neighbor that she hated, and turned on me. Now, to be honest, that other neighbor was someone I did not like. Nobody in the neighborhood liked. I was just chatting to be a nice guy.

Anyway, the moral of this story is to be as nice as you can to people, but understand that they may not return the favor. That is especially true with old people (this woman was 86 at the time -- she has moved since then).

Make good use of voice mail. I never answered this neighbor's calls. I let it go to voice mail. That way, I could plan my response. I always took care of here, but on my terms and schedule. I could call her back and say, "I'll take care of this, but not today, I'm busy with work."

I have another neighbor in her 70s who depends on me for things, and I do the same thing with her. I take care of her, but I listen to the voicemail message first so I know what is urgent, and what can wait. Almost everything is urgent to them, but can really wait.

CD

 

[Morning Glory]

Will I still enjoy being alone when I'm old? (I hope I do, that'll make my life much easier!). If I do have children, will I be so silly that I drop my entire social life for the sake of the children, and then expect my adult children to keep me company everyday when I'm old? I don't know...

Well I suppose I'm officially old and I most definitely (like you) enjoy being alone. People know that I don't like unannounced visitors and that goes for my children too. My biggest dread is one of them falling on hard times and needing to move back in! I do live with a partner (who has dementia) but that doesn't mean I don't get time alone. He goes to bed at 6.30pm so my evenings are alone. Plus, during the day he goes walking for several hours. Otherwise he sits and watches TV so I do other things like cooking, reading etc.

 

[LissaC]

She never calls on me for practical help (I'm clueless when it comes to most home repairs and I know her son comes and fixes things around the house when she needs). I think she feels genuinely lonely, and would like to have someone to chat with, but I can't be that person. Home is my sanctuary and if I'm home alone with nothing planned then I want to be home alone. I hate the phone ringing (no one has the number of my fixed phone), I hate the doorbell ringing, my cellphone is always muted. I think I'm picturing myself as a loner I do enjoy being social but I absolutely need time alone to recharge. And my home is a very special place where I can just relax and be myself. Knowing this woman lives across the hall and she can knock on my door anytime and make small talk it's very distressing.

 

[Morning Glory]

Knowing this woman lives across the hall and she can knock on my door anytime and make small talk it's very distressing.

I'd feel the same. Would you consider moving because of it?

 

[LissaC]

I'd feel the same. Would you consider moving because of it?

I would, if I could afford to. I'm on a government housing scheme that provides young people housing with affordable rent, living here allows me to save money so I can get a loan to buy my own house, I should be able to reach that financial goal in less than 2 years if I stay here so I'll just put up with this. Houses in the places where I'd like to live have a rent at least 50% higher than what I pay here.

 

[TastyReuben]

Will I still enjoy being alone when I'm old? (I hope I do, that'll make my life much easier!). If I do have children, will I be so silly that I drop my entire social life for the sake of the children, and then expect my adult children to keep me company everyday when I'm old?

I'm older (55) and our personalities sound very similar that way. I have a very strict unannounced visitors policy and have had to enforce it (with family, too) - it's kind of a running joke with my family now.

I also love being alone. Days on end being alone. I imagine, should my wife die first, that when I pass away, it'll be one of those where I've konked it and no one notices for a good month or more.

I would, in no way, give in to that neighbor. Much like other things in life, she's less interested in the social interaction and more interested in knowing she's got you on a string, so to speak, and can give you a little tug and you'll jump, any time she wants. It's about control, not companionship.

 

[TastyReuben]

If I do have children, will I be so silly that I drop my entire social life for the sake of the children, and then expect my adult children to keep me company everyday when I'm old? I don't know...

Between us, my wife and I had about 6,831 reasons not to have kids (give or take a thousand) and one of those was that we did not ever want to be an obligation to kids who've grown and established their own lives. We'd rather saddle the state and the taxpayer with that.

Now, some people will argue if you raise them right, they'll not see it as an obligation and they'll want to do it, but the reality is, it's still a responsibility we'd rather not put on someone, whether they're willing to do it or not.

My brother is the primary caregiver for my parents, and he's one who'd tell you he's proud to be able to help them, but he also is a very sensitive person, and it really bothers him mentally and physically (he's no youngster himself - he's 65) to help them with all that he helps them with. We'd never want to put someone in that position.

 

[LissaC]

Between us, my wife and I had about 6,831 reasons not to have kids (give or take a thousand) and one of those was that we did not ever want to be an obligation to kids who've grown and established their own lives. We'd rather saddle the state and the taxpayer with that.

Now, some people will argue if you raise them right, they'll not see it as an obligation and they'll want to do it, but the reality is, it's still a responsibility we'd rather not put on someone, whether they're willing to do it or not.

My brother is the primary caregiver for my parents, and he's one who'd tell you he's proud to be able to help them, but he also is a very sensitive person, and it really bothers him mentally and physically (he's no youngster himself - he's 65) to help them with all that he helps them with. We'd never want to put someone in that position.

That's one huge concern of mine, becoming a burden to others as I age. I do think children have the moral obligation to materially provide for the parents in old age (if the parents were never abusive and have materially provided for the children too), but it's a terrible place to be in, and I hope to retire with enough money to cover my expenses if I ever need expensive treatments or a nursing home. Still, a lot of people in Portugal don't make enough money to retire comfortably, and a lot of people have to financially help their parents when they should be working hard to earn their money and build their lives. I pride myself on being self sufficient and fully independent and I've always thought, for all my independence and autonomy, karma will slap me in the face and I will one day be bed ridden or in a wheelchair (like my grandma who had Parkinson's), so that I can learn the valuable life lesson of depending on others

All this reminds me of a conversation we had earlier at work today, about inheritances. One of my coworkers was complaining her father in law is very wealthy, but does not distribute the wealth on to his children And that her own father didn't want anything from her grandma's inheritance and it pains her to see her cousins wear her grandma's rings. I am really fond of this coworker but I couldn't disagree more with her on this topic. It's other people's possessions you're talking about here! You did not buy this stuff with your money, you did not earn them with the sweat from your labor! If your father in law wanted you to have one of his vacation homes, don't you think he would give it to you? Same for grandma's rings! Seriously, it drives me crazy that I work so hard to make my own money and one day in the future, someone may think they have any right on the things I own! I think when I'm old I'll sell all my possessions and spend the money on futile stuff just to annoy the hell out of the people who expect to inherit from me!

By the way, portuguese law is ridiculous when it comes to inheritances. You can only freely dispose of 25% of what you own, the rest must be equally divided among heirs and you can only take someone out of the inheritance if you prove in court the person was abusive to you. Ridiculous!

 

[TastyReuben]

I do think children have the moral obligation to materially provide for the parents in old age (if the parents were never abusive and have materially provided for the children too)

This is something I don't agree with, because I was never asked to be created. I had no say in the matter, and if it were possible, I'd gladly have stayed nonexistent.

That's another one of the reasons we didn't procreate - what if we'd created a kid who grew up and realized, "You know what? Life isn't the super-uber wonderful gift that everyone makes it out to be - I think I'd have preferred to give this a miss!"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not miserable or suicidal, and by world standards, and even by US standards, I've had a pretty good life so far, and since I am here, I'm going to live it the way I want, as much as that's possible.

The truth is, though, that the whole thing is just so...tedious, I guess. Life is like an amusement park where, after you look forward to the rollercoasters and junk food, you get in the park and realize it's 75 seconds of rollercoaster and three hours of standing in a line.

Add to that the normal (and sometimes abnormal) anxiety, the health issues that virtually everyone will experience if they live long enough, seeing loved one suffer and die...if Clarence the angel were to visit me, he wouldn't get to traipse around showing me all the ripples my life created because I'd take him up on his deal of having never been born before he even finished the sentence!

 

[Morning Glory]

This is something I don't agree with, because I was never asked to be created. I had no say in the matter, and if it were possible, I'd gladly have stayed nonexistent.

My Mum was great. She was totally blind and used to say to me when I was a kid 'Don't worry. When I'm old and frail I'll go to 'The Sunshine Home for the Blind' (it was a real place back in the day). You shouldn't have to look after me.'

In fact she lived to be 97 in her council house with carers visiting.

 

[LissaC]

This is something I don't agree with, because I was never asked to be created. I had no say in the matter, and if it were possible, I'd gladly have stayed nonexistent.

That's another one of the reasons we didn't procreate - what if we'd created a kid who grew up and realized, "You know what? Life isn't the super-uber wonderful gift that everyone makes it out to be - I think I'd have preferred to give this a miss!"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not miserable or suicidal, and by world standards, and even by US standards, I've had a pretty good life so far, and since I am here, I'm going to live it the way I want, as much as that's possible.

The truth is, though, that the whole thing is just so...tedious, I guess. Life is like an amusement park where, after you look forward to the rollercoasters and junk food, you get in the park and realize it's 75 seconds of rollercoaster and three hours of standing in a line.

Add to that the normal (and sometimes abnormal) anxiety, the health issues that virtually everyone will experience if they live long enough, seeing loved one suffer and die...if Clarence the angel were to visit me, he wouldn't get to traipse around showing me all the ripples my life created because I'd take him up on his deal of having never been born before he even finished the sentence!

I tend to agree with you re:enjoying being alive, and the metaphor about the amusement park is a really good one. But I do think we have a moral duty to repay those who have done for us, should they need it, be it material or emotional support, although the argument about not asking to be born is a good one

 

[TastyReuben]

She was totally blind and used to say to me when I was a kid 'Don't worry. When I'm old and frail I'll go to 'The Sunshine Home for the Blind'

That's a great attitude, and I'm glad your mom wasn't a weight on you.

I'll tell you, inasmuch as I'm grateful for being fed and raised and all that, there's a part of me that's a little miffed at my folks right now about this whole subject.

Much like your mom, my parents have always said, "We never, ever want to be a burden! Ever! Because of that, we've made plans that when the time comes, we're going to Such-And-Such Old Folks' home, and the finances are already arranged, and all that."

I used to feel blessed that I had such thoughtful and forward-thinking parents. My folks aren't wealthy by any stretch, and to have people of relatively meager means thinking in terms of estate management and thinking of making the way easy for their kids, I was really impressed.

That's until I found out it wasn't entirely true. Scratch that...nearly entirely all untrue. They'd made plans, but the plans were more like, "That's where we plan to go," but they didn't put anything in motion to actually make that happen, and now my dad has dementia and has no issue whatsoever with taxing everyone around him with his every wish and desire, regardless of how outlandish it is, and my mom is a "traditional" wife, so she won't tell him no, and my brother just wants to do everything to make everyone happy, so if that means driving down to get my dad to take him to lunch, driving him around for three hours while he changes his mind sixteen times about where he wants to go, then going back home, unfed, tired and hungry, having wasted the better part of entire day, then that's what they do.

And my mom, I'll talk to her, and in the same sentence, she'll say, "I feel so bad for Lee, he does so much for us, he can't get his own stuff done, and he looks so worried and tired all the time, he really needs to see a doctor...that reminds me, Lee was supposed to call my doctor and get my prescriptions straightened out and get my next appointment set up! I sure wish he was more on the ball with things!"



And I forgot to comment on LissaC's inheritance remarks, but that's a whole other barrel of snakes - I've seen enough bad behavior that way, up close and personal, that I wouldn't put anything past anybody to get to what in most cases is, in comparison to a human life, a pretty paltry sum.

 

[CookieMonster]

elder care is a very expansive topic because there are a _lot_ of circumstances at the beginning, middle and end - and it all changes.

after a fall my wife's mother was bed ridden and in a nursing home. thing got so bad we had to hire private duty attendants to ensure her daily care and hygiene. my wife had three young children to care for - she had a plate full.
never _ever_ leave a loved one in a nursing home thinking they'll be well cared for.

after my grandfather died, my grandmother lived with my parents. it was absolutely great - gatherings included kids, grandkids and great-grandkids. of course - important to note .... my grandmother doted on each and everyone of them.
her mind was clear as a bell until the end. she stayed with my parents in hospice care - they did have outside help.

years later my mother did hospice care for my father - with family and outside help....
it was a long grueling unpleasant very burdensome event.....

years later my mother went into hospice care - which technically is a 'less than one year' situation.
well, she managed with outside help on her own for a while, but eventually we grew very concerned with her health/condition/care/etc and insisted she moved in with us. her hospice situation ran to five years - that kind of situation will put a strain on the whole house.

so, for any of you youngsters wondering about taking care of your parents in their declining years - I will point blank tell you unattended hospice / nursing homes / etc are no place for anyone you care about. it is not a "duty" - it is one of the kindest things you may ever do.

 

[LissaC]

Home care is the solution the family found for my great grandma, and who is 99 and fairly capable, but not well enough to spend a lot of time alone or do household chores, and it's definitely not safe for her to sleep alone in the house. My grandma was also cared for at home by my grandad, though there was a nurse who came every morning to help her get out of bed and do her hygiene. I agree it's a much better solution, and personally I imagine I would really enjoy being in my own house instead of some nursing home, though I don't think I'd have much of a say if someone else was paying for my care instead of me...

I think our opinion regarding elder care will depend on the relationship we have with our parents. I don't have a close enough relationship with my mom that I imagine myself cleaning her and feeding her in old age, though she's very laidback and non-judgmental and I imagine living with her wouldn't be too hard. I'd do it for my dad, and I do think I would enjoy his company and knowing he is being cared for by me. But I cannot imagine anyone in this family who would happily share a house with my grandma, and live everyday with her criticism, her snide remarks and her giving everyone a piece of her mind without accepting a response in return. She provides materially for us but never emotionally, and I think we should retribute in kind. Which is why I'm terrified of becoming a burden to future family members, because they may not genuinely enjoy being with me and spending time in my company, and maybe they feel I never provided them with enough emotional support to justify them sacrificing their emotional wellbeing for me.

On top of that, most people in Portugal live in 2 or 3 bedroom apartments that would be considered tiny by most American standards, and a lot of folks simply don't have enough space to accommodate elders in their home. I do know of people who had bed ridden elders or disabled children living in their living room or their own rooms, but it's not an ideal home situation.

 

[TastyReuben]

I will point blank tell you unattended hospice / nursing homes / etc are no place for anyone you care about.

Yep. My grandmother on my dad's side, she lived for years in a nursing home, literally a short walk from my parents' veg garden and across a small field. She had her mind right up to the end (96yo), and she loved it in the care facility, because everyone did for her and looked after her - hairdresser came and fixed her hair, someone went and got her meds for her, someone took her to the doc, she had a little fridge for her jello tubs, etc.

My wife's grandmother had much the same experience. You couldn't have budged her out of her place if you tried, and I think the key to both of those was, at least in part, down to the mental acuity of the two people involved, and the fact that someone was in and out every day to say hi and visit for a bit, and (at least in my grandmom's case), we knew most of the people working there fairly well - with six kids having gone through public school in a small district...if you were born between around 1952 and 1970, you probably know one of us.

My MIL, she had dementia, severely at the end, and she was in a top-notch care facility, paid through insurance, because she was lucky enough to get long-term-care insurance when it first came out, and those policies were cheap and comprehensive. By the end of her life, she was paying (meaning, insurance was paying) close to $7500 a month for her care, and it went up every so often.

That was another instance where someone from the family was in with her multiple times a day, and at odd times...keeps folks on their toes.

Having done my share of visiting in those places, I'll add...if you think having a few kids is your guarantee against loneliness in your golden years...think again. IMO, most of those places and treated as dump sites for the unwanted and inconvenient. Talking with a lot of the workers over the years, the residents getting regular, meaningful visits fell in about the 10% range.